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Latest comments made on this video:
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 29 Aug 10, 13:21:30
Holy was only reasonably competitive. His best win over a good larger man was close decision over Bowe, who in turn beat him twice, including a KO. He went 0-1-1 with the other top large heavy he faced in Lewis, and should probably have lost both. He also never faced the likes of Klitschko, Ike, Ruddock, Tua, Golota etc. When you consider that and the limited records of Spinks, Byrd, Toney, Jones and co in the division, it tells me little guys just aren't competitive now.
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 29 Aug 10, 13:21:22
"People were smaller up until the mid 1900s" The 'white hope era' of the 1910s on average produced the largest heavyweights seen until the 1990s. The 6-1 190lbers were never considered huge. Jim Jeffries (6-3 and about 220 at his best) was considered huge.
By: tdk813. on 29 Aug 10, 01:20:56
The 6'1" 190LBer was the 6'2" 230LBer of their time. When taking a HW from today and placing them in the 1940s you'd be giving them infinite advantages, so ultimately you'd have to subject the fighter of today to the nutrition and environment of the small[weight] early 20th century HW.
By: tdk813. on 29 Aug 10, 01:15:22
@FlaviusConstantius Sorry but i didn't have time to post again. For the sake of the boxing HW division I'll use low 200s as 200-sub 220 seeing as the 240s has consistently been high for the division. But by being small in a large era it shows that smaller fighters can compete, small and large has just described different weights over the years. At one time those 6'1" 190LB HWs were considered huge. People were smaller up until the mid 1900s due to nutrition and expense of energy.
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 28 Aug 10, 12:45:24
Small by today's standards, but not small in any other era. Holy is actually an example of what I'm talking about. Take out his cruiser career and he has a pretty spotty record in the division. He's 1-3-1 against the best superheavies he faced. 200-225 is a pretty wide target. A lot of heavies would fall into that category regardless of whether they were aiming for it. How do you account for the scores of heavies who have always weighed out of that range?
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 28 Aug 10, 12:43:38
Are the Klitschkos not fit at their weight? Was Tyson not fit at his? Ali would only trim down to his most effective weight. Remember many past heavies used to weigh in the 190s range (including lots of Ali's opponents) and he never trimmed down that low, only to his best weight. That Ali and Liston could reach the low 200s (ie 200-205) is pretty telling to me, as many subsequent heavy champs and the guys they beat would not have been able to.
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 28 Aug 10, 12:43:16
Which is where we disagree. I say the heavies today are bigger now not because they stopped cutting weight (why would they all stop?) but because the little guys are no longer competitive against better-skilled, more talented big heavies. They've been forced out of the division. It helps that weigh-ins are now 24-48 hrs before fights, allowing the smaller fellas to squeeze into lower divisions. Roy Jones had a ring weight of c.185 in his light-heavy fights. In other eras he'd be a small heavy.
By: tdk813. on 27 Aug 10, 22:23:33
Let me clarify something real quick: 1. I define low 200s as 200-sub 225 2. I'm saying HW size is dependent on era. If you took a 6'2" 76" reach HW from today and they were born in previous eras they'd be fighting at a lower weight than they currently are. Someone like Joe Louis? If he were around today he'd probably be weighing 225, his frame could easily handle it too
By: tdk813. on 27 Aug 10, 20:38:30
@FlaviusConstantius And why did they whip him into a frenzy? Because they wanted him in the norm weight range at the time as did all the other trainers. Listen to Ali when he'd talk about fighting, he'd always say something about his weight and attribute the low weight to being fit. That's the mindset in those days. In the NFL they even thought weight training would build bulky muscles and make players slower, people thought it was ideal to be lean in those times.
By: tdk813. on 27 Aug 10, 20:36:12
@FlaviusConstantius Holyfield and Tyson were small HWs and they're the last two dominant American HWs. Tyson didn't even break 220 while in his prime.
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 27 Aug 10, 11:07:47
@tdk813 Ask yourself why guys weighing 180-low 200s have had little impact on the division in recent times. Spinks KO'd by the first prime quality heavy he faced. Jones had his stagey win over Ruiz and nothing else. Toney is yet to win a title legit and may have been on roids. Byrd did well with a slippery southpaw style, but hardly a terror of the division. Is it because the big guys are really just little guys who don't train down, or is it that the little guys are just uncompetitive now?
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 27 Aug 10, 11:06:25
@tdk813 Foreman is genuine big man whose trainers used to deliberately whip him into a frenzy and dehydrate him before a fight. In his case the extra weight would probably have benefited him. Ali started as a skinny light-heavy who gradually filled out into a solid heavy. Past a certain point he was just soft. Heavier he'd still be near his best, but I doubt the extra weight would be of much benefit. He fought at a weight that suited him.
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 27 Aug 10, 11:04:56
@tdk813 Boxers compete at their most effective weight. The heavy division has always featured guys weighing from 180 to the high 200s. There's never been a norm range they all aim for. Why hinder yourself unnecessarily? The difference is the bigger men have got better over the years, which has left the little guys uncompetitive. If a good big man beating a good little man is usually true of the smaller weights, why not the heavies?
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 27 Aug 10, 11:04:25
Spinks, Cooper, Patterson, Foster, Quarry, Ellis, Jones, Moore, etc were sub-200. Quite a few of Ali's fights right there. Height and reach is a red herring in assessing the size of fighters. Hearns is taller with a longer reach than Tyson and Marciano. A boxer who can weigh say 190 like a lot of past heavies, is obviously starting from a lower base. Tyson, Lewis, the Klits and many of their opponents are never going to reach the low 200s. Liston and Ali could because they were smaller men.
By: tdk813. on 26 Aug 10, 23:13:36
This entire time I've been saying fighters would fight at the norm range for that division. Look at Joe Louis, he'd the size and reach to compete in the HW division these days but not the weight. His natural weight was probably 205[maybe more]. He definitely had the ability to put on weight but the knowledge wasn't available at the time. S&C and nutrition didn't get legitimized until the 80s. Today he could easily be a lean 225. he fought at the norm range for his time though and lost weight to
By: tdk813. on 26 Aug 10, 22:53:51
@FlaviusConstantius The vast majority of Ali's opponents are 205-218. The height and reach of the 60's-70's HW is the same as the HWs from the 80s on, however those fighters weighed significantly less. How? Did these fighters that eventually fought at higher weights magically gain the ability to fight above 215 or had they made the choice to fight in the low 200s[205-215]? I'm curious why you're using 200lbs when I say "low 200s" as well. The low 200s isn't 200lbs, it's the low 200s.
By: tdk813. on 26 Aug 10, 22:36:48
@FlaviusConstantius Do you honestly think Foreman, Ali, or anyone else couldn't have came in heavier while still fighting at their best? Foreman didn't have a high BF% while at 220 and could have benefited from coming in at 230[probably what he walked around at] or 240. Why lose the weight for a bout? Could it be that historically there's a weight range that increased for HW fighters? Once you get the 1950s and beyond HW fighters were regularly 210-220, that's the norm.
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 26 Aug 10, 13:44:02
@tdk813 As opposed to you making up nonsense like I said Tyson and his comp would walk through any era in history, or Tyson being a cert to whip Liston? The uncompetitiveness of 180-190lbers in the heavy division is why the cruiser division was introduced. They were no longer getting a look in with the emergence of quality heavies 20-30lbs heavier than them. This stuff ain't rocket science, even if it seems that way to you.
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 26 Aug 10, 13:43:49
@tdk813 Tyson was also a big heavyweight by historical standards. He'd be substantially bigger than many of Liston or Ali's opponents, yet was smaller than most of his opponents. Why? Because the 190lbers who made up the division for so long were no longer around, given their own division because they were too small to compete as heavies.
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 26 Aug 10, 13:42:35
@tdk813 How about Liston weighed in the low 200s because it was his best weight? Just like 260 was Primo Carnera's best weight and 185 was Marciano's best weight. Fighters fight at their most effective weight. That's what you aren't understanding. You think the fighters were smaller back then because they all cut weight. They were smaller because they were smaller. Period. Tyson, Lewis, Tucker, Ruddock, Tua, Ike, Bowe or the Klits would have to cut off a limb to weigh 200lb.
By: tdk813. on 26 Aug 10, 04:09:21
@FlaviusConstantius Tyson was a small HW by today's standards and he did well.
By: tdk813. on 26 Aug 10, 04:03:25
@FlaviusConstantius I don't have a hard time understanding anything, you've a affinity for droning on. I'd really like to see something to support your notion that the average HW was 190 pounds too. I'd also like to know how you acknowledge a change in the HW division yet act so naive when I bring it up. Do you think a fighter like Sonny Liston weighed in the low 200s because it's the norm or because he just decided to do it for no reason?
By: tdk813. on 26 Aug 10, 03:55:58
@FlaviusConstantius What strange notion? The fighters came in light because they felt it's better. Do you thing guys who are the same size of recent heavies magically weighed less back then or was it by choice? You trying to disregard that widely known information is pretty ridiculous. What's really ridiculous is your skewing of my statements. I say the lack of a CW division is why there were small HW fighters[190 lbs] and you morph it into "so all HW are fat?".
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 26 Aug 10, 01:31:15
Do you think Henry Cooper or Marty Marshall would weigh 210lb+ today? Fighters fight at their best weight. Forgive me for not buying this strange notion that the heavies of the last few decades would somehow be 15-20lbs lighter if they fought in the 50s, or conversely that the big guys are really just 200lbers who don't cut weight any more.
By: FlaviusConstantius. on 26 Aug 10, 01:30:45
What you've a hard time understanding is how the heavyweight division has changed in recent decades. The average 6'1 190lb heavy that Ali, Liston and co faced is gone, kaput, forced out of the division when it started being dominated by talented fighters 20-30lbs heavier than them. There's a different division for every 5-6lbs, so why should weight differences suddenly stop being an issue when they get north of 200lb?